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#5881 TyrannosaurusRekt

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Posted 19 July 2014 - 10:32 PM

i like pie, do you like pie?


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#5882 Kloppische

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 12:55 AM

Good idea with answering like that, looks much better:

 

Firstly, I think we seriously need to agree on some definitions because we're seriously not getting one another, mate. Let's start with the the whole capitalism vs socialism  as opposing schools of economical thought. The simplified core difference between the two is the ownership of the means of production - in capitalism, it's privately owned, in socialism, it's publicly owned. The dichotomy of free (unregulated) market and centrally planned economy can fit in both economical thoughts. Therefore, free market doesn't equal capitalism or vice versa, and state regulations doesn't equal socialism.

Anyway, I'll try to answer to your points bellow.
 
Socialism is, as the name suggests, full of social programs  like retirement system, public education, public healthcare, public banks etc, etc. No market can be free with all those things, how can it be? First of all, those public institutions are not free as you are well aware of, the state has to tax our work, tax the products, tax the exchange of products. That already contradicts your opinion that free market can work within socialism - free market is not free if the exchange of goods, work and products are taxed, it is a regulation in itself.
 
Public institutions also contradict free market - if the state donates public institutions it already messes with the market because it hurts the private sector, wouldn't you agree? Everywhere where there is a public sector, the private sector gets hurt. Costumers are obliged to pay taxes for healthcare, for insurance etc. This is the whole idea of socialism - and it entirely contradicts the idea of free market, free competition, free choice of costumers.
 

 

In a true free market capitalism (laissez-faire), the only role of the government is to guarantee property rights and protect lives of citizens. Other than that, without any regulations, it would not be government's responsibility to ensure that companies are playing fairly as long as they do not break the above rules. Government could also be in charge of national security, police, army and judicial system, doesn't make any difference to the discussion though. And no, I was not talking about anarcho-capitalism. 

 

I must disagree - free market, as again the name suggest, is freedom within the market, that means freedom of product exchange, freedom of business etc. But we don't live in caves anymore, laws have to be obeyed. If someone tries to get rich by breaking the law he needs to get punished accordingly, I think we have two definitions of "playing fairly". I mean obeying the law, and you mean bascially being a douchebag and playing within the rules but in the way that hurts the competition. But do you think its really possible on a large scale? As I said, free market creates something if there is a demand for it - you gave an example of a huge firm that would buy-out all supplies to stop the small firms from getting big. But what that actions would cause? If the magazines exporting the supplies were getting emptied out by this big whale then instantly a group of smart people would create more magazines because the demand for the supplies would be huge and it would be very good to invest in that.

 

And even if you disagree then tell me how would this huge firm be able to buy out everything everywhere? This is simply impossible, huge firms equal having sectors all over the country or even the world, it makes it absolutely impossible to effectively play dirty, at least in the example you've given. I would like some more examples please.  :P 

 

So we're not living in a capitalist system? Don't make a mistake, this is not a true free market that we're living in, but it's definitely capitalism. Corporate or financial capitalism, if you wish. And that was exactly my point, but you seem to have misunderstood it. The whole idea of free market assumes and requires that participants do not mislead or coerce aspects of the market price, supply, demand, and do not participate in price fixing and do not mislead investors, but it inevitably happens when under free market conditions certain businesses grow larger and larger, and then try to actively kill competition by any means, thus going against the very idea of free market. You wanted examples - how about manipulating the supply chain? Imagine a company that has outgrown its competitors and can now control the supply chain, either by preventing entry of competing companies by exclusive contracts or by buying out supplies and creating artificial scarcity which in the end will increase prices for smaller competitors. What about undercutting competition? A common practice. 

 

Capitalism is strictly connected to the idea of a free trade and competition, therefore of course we're not living in a capitalist system. How can you say that? Europe is a one giant zone of socialism - we have retirement system, public education, public healthcare, public banks, public television, I could name many more. This is all a contradiction to capitalism in which "everything or almost everything is private".  But keep in mind, in capitalism there might be public sectors, of course! But they cannot be obligatory to the costumers! State can be a participant of the market but never someone above the rest setting the rules. But that's what happens now.

I can at most agree on saying that we live in a pseudo-capitalism. In theory you can create a private firm and compete with other firm, in theory you can compete - but where's the freedom of action? The system is way too over-regulated so creating a firm (in Poland) lasts few weeks instead of few minutes. Just for having a firm(!) you have an obligation to pay 1000zloty of insurence every month. How can that have anything to do with an idea of capitalism when we are obliged to basically pay a fine because we were so brazen to create a firm and try to make money. Also, when you hire someone and he earns 1400zloty net you need to write on his work-deal 2000 gross because the 600 are taxes. But here's the kicker - you also have to pay a double insurence for him and the real cost of hiring that employee is 2400 zloty so you pay another 400. So basically you are paying an extra 1000 just to hire someone for 1400. Once again an employer is punished for being so brazen to give someone a job! You can't call capitalism a system in which people are discouraged from creating firms, hiring employees and where almost everything is heavily taxed. Taxes in Poland:

 

Work is taxed on on about 30%. Then we take the money state left us and we go to the store to buy something. 23% VAT is included in almost every product. State already takes 53% of our money away from us. Then we go to the petrol station and it turns out the tax is about 1/2 of the total price of the petrol, so thats another couple %. Polish economists counted that state takes averagely 70%~ of our money.

 

So to sum up - no, this is not capitalism, never, this is at most a very, very poor imitation, full of absurds, full of taxes and it hurts everyone... except the richest of course.

 

Free market eventually corrupts itself. It will never work in an unequal playing field - and we're always going to have unequal opportunities, if simply because someone will always have more than someone else, and it will eventually lead to the problems I mentioned before. Those might not be the problems of free market, as in the ideal world, they wouldn't be possible in a truly free market at all, but that happens and  it inevitably leads to monopolies and corporate/finance capitalism we're finding us in today. I also think that you overestimate the potential of internet and media to bring transparency, and the ability of a regular customer to have motivation and put effort into finding and analysing information, and then make rational well-informed decision. In addition, since you mentioned that you're interested n psychological factors of economy - it's well documented that too many choices and overload of information are detrimental to rational decision making, which (the so-called "perfect information") is one of the assumptions under a free market idea. 

 

In what way will it corrupt itself? Who will corrupt who? In what way monopolies will be created in a free market? I explained in details how monopolies are created right now and what is the source of corruption - I believe free market would erase those problems. Yet even though these problems are already a part of our life, you keep saying free market will lead to them happening. Waiting for more examples, power over supply chain in my opinion was a poor example, I wrote why I think so above.

 

The potential of internet is huge, but I admit its just a hypothesis, never trully proved. I don't know how internet influences the market in China for example, someone must check it out, results could be interesting. However I didn't say about finding anything. The information will come to the costumers naturally. If a firm gets bad reputation then an average costumer will hear about it sooner or later, the flow of information in today's world is gigantic, especially when the information is about a scandal of some sort. Some people will read on the internet and share the information with their friends when they meet, some will hear about it in televsion, some will read it in a paper etc.

 

And I don't see a psychological problem here because information you receive is very simple, just test it on yourself - if you hear that supermarket X sells meat that is overdue, will you risk buying meat there or go somewhere else?

When the quality of products becomes poor and the firm doesn't have a monopoly on the product (I believe monopolies won't be created, you think differently) how can this firm survive in a world full of people who are fiercly fighting for costumers? Low quality products can happen only when a firm has a monopoly on this product and I don't believe a monopolism can happen.

 

Once again, quality of product suffers when free market inevitably degenerates into monopolism, it's not a problem of a true free market itself. Once larger entity (or entities) outcompete their smaller opponents and market concentration happens, those larger entities do not need need to be as competitive, and can afford to invest less in product quality (the same applies to work conditions, wages, and prices).

In general, I do agree that private sector tends to be more dynamic and reacts to innovations better, that's why it has more potential to outperform public sector. However, it doesn't apply to everything. Public education can be at least as good as private one, and the same can be said about healthcare, as about any other product or service with significant negative or positive externalities, and that's there taxation and subsidies usually come into play.

 

So you're saying there wouldn't be a problem if the free market wouldn't degenerate into monopolism... Then we have no problem! :D You're saying free market leads to monopolism, I think differently which I underlined couple of times. Monopolism is not caused by a free market but by a market regulated by the state. Monopolism happens when you get rid of competition and getting rid of competition happens when the market is regulated by thousands of public servants (I also mean politicians) who are easily corruptible and will do what the big capitalist wants for a right amount of money. Yes, it's that simple. Politicians have an unlimited power of getting rich by controlling the market and it leads to corruption and monopolism on a massive scale. If a costumer controls the market:

- Corruption cannot happen. Only corruption that happens in the free market is a corruption within the firm itself. The bigger the firm gets the harder it is for the owner to hire the right people who won't be tempted to earn some money on the side. But this is only another argument against creation of monopolism - when corruption within the firm growes, then the big firm has harder and harder time competing with other, more effectively run smaller firms.

- monopolism on a longer period of time (you can have a monopol on product but as I said many times - market creates something when there's demand for it. If there would be a demand for cheaper product then people would quickly start acting) simply cannot happen. No matter how powerful the firm is and how much money it has, it won't be able to stop the enormous flow of little investors who will offer the costumers better and cheaper services. The only way to crash the little investors is to set up a regulation that will destroy the microenterprises before they even hatch. That's why I still don't see how in your opinion monopolism can happen on a free market.

 

As I already mentioned, you seem to have misunderstood me (I might have not expressed myself that well to be honest, I posted it in the middle of the night after work) - I'm naming the problems of the system that in my opinion is the end result of any free market. I think free market is an ideal which is unsustainable in reality. It generates wealth and created dynamism in exchange of land, labour and capital, but in the long run it degenerates and produces social polarization and decline of average welfare, thus stagnating and declining itself. And I do agree about it being human nature. Audacity of greed is the ethos of free market, and that eventually leads to its failure and the rise of crony capitalism. Big inefficient government is just as bad, I've never argued about it. 

 

So what we need to do is to take away the tools from those greedy bastards and that's what free market does. The government controlling the market simply cannot work because as we agree people are flawed creatures and if we give such great power to some group of people it can only end with a disaster. The only possible solution is to take away that power.

 

Now here I have trouble with understanding you. How did free market create our civilization if there's probably none historical examples of societies with real free markets for extended period of time, and the whole concept really came into play only in late 18th - 19th century? Many systems might have been tried in ancient times, but the profusion of empires suggests that the rule of powerful elite was the most successful in the early going. Regulation of businesses existed in early Egyptian, Indian, Greek, and Roman civilizations, as well as the Eastern ones. In ancient and early medieval world state had always had a certain varying degree of control of the markets, in some places and times more so than in others. After that, in Middle Ages, feudalism came - holding the land in the hands of a selected few and exchanging it for labour had very little to do with any market economy even more so with free market, and after urbanization increased (mostly because of black plague wiping out a significant percentage of population). The guild system became the defining point of economy as such. It was based on privilege granted by kings or states, and it ensured the control of production and prevented those with lack of capital from even entering the market. The next step was mercantilism (combined with colonialism), were strong governmental regulations were exercised, and only in late 18th century a new form of capitalism (which is the closest system to unregulated market that we have probably witnessed in history) has risen to the top thanks to industrial revolution. It brought obvious positives, but then gave rise to big businesses, monopolization, and now we find ourselves in a mess that can be best called finance corporate capitalism. I think we built our civilizaton by trial and error, and we'll continue doing that. All of those -isms and -schisms are ideas, and that's why the majority of countries nowadays are mixed exonomies, you'll have trouble finding any that would be either free market or centrally planned economy. Singapore and Hongkong are currently one of the most economically free societies, but still both have a degree of government regulation and 'socialist' public health and education.

 

Here you convinced me, I jumped over the line with this one. That's what happens when something comes to my head by itself, I didn't learn it anywhere, just made it up on the spot thinking this was a good argument.  :lol:

 

I don't know, rapid upward wage mobility? Lack of skilled workers, i.e demand for labour is significantly higher than supply? It's pretty much the case in most European countries when it comes to manual labour these days. Everyone has an uni diploma, nobody wants to learn a profession and learn anymore.

 

The point is that price is not set up by a caprice of the employer but by the standard set by the market. That's why taking down the minimal wage wouldn't make people work a whole day for a bowl of soup.

 

As I said, as a labourer, you have little if any leverage against employee. 

 

Still, the deal you sign is something you agree on. Whatever you agree on, its your decision. If the rules you agreed on are broken then you go to court.

 

Poland's economy might be government regulated and I believe it still has scars of the old commie rule, but it's been moving towards free market since the 90s just like other Eastern bloc countries. It's definitely not socialist, even if it has socialist institutions such as public healthcare or education. Inefficient, incapable government is a different story though.

 

You're very wrong unfortunately. After we destroyed communism (not entirely but that's a different story) a man called Mieczysław Wilczek presented "The Act of Wilczek". It was the simplest economic act in the entire Europe at that time, it consisted of only 4 pages of rules of the market! After it came to life in 1989 Poland had the best economic growth in the entire Europe. Yet some "brilliant" minds decided regulations are necessary and the original act was modified after only 1,5 year. Then it was modified again and again and again and by 2000 it was something completely different, full of regulations, over few hundred pages. Since then we've been heading right back into socialism. You couldn't be more wrong in suggesting Poland is not socialist. Even our own Prime Minister, who came to power claiming he was a liberal, that he will reduce taxes, that he will free the market, after 3 years of rulling he stated that he's a Social Democrat! That's what power does to people, a thief and a cheat is rulling our country and didn't fullfil a single promise in 7 fucking years...

 

I already told you about how much taxes we pay in Poland. We have an income tax that is the main doctrine of socialism - "Take the money from the rich and give to the poor! Social justice!" I found a quite interesting anegdote about this - if a poor man takes a weapon and goes to a rich man's house and says "Hey, Im poor, give me some of your money!" he would of course go to jail for that act. But when a state does the exact same thing its somehow very much okay.

We also have plenty of public institutions for some of which people are obliged to give their money. How can you call it anything else than socialism? Just because we have more freedom on the market then 30 years ago doesn't mean we have capitalism. Just because a slave gets free Sundays doesn't mean he's not a slave.

 

Yes, it's the problems of today, but the system that we have today will always be a result of any market economy. It's not socialism, once again. It's corporatism, monopolism, finance capitalism, failed mixed economy - call it as you wish.

 

We must agree to disagree then.

 

I enjoy our ramblings as long as they are on a decent level. Generally it ends with people calling each other names etc.  :lol: 

 

 

However it is taking too damn long to answer, I spent about 2 hours writing this. :D


Edited by Kloppische, 20 July 2014 - 01:01 AM.

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#5883 Panflute

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 11:29 AM

Hey guys, where do Polish fans sit in the Schalke stadium?

 

The Nordkurwa.

 

 

 

 

 

:taxi:

 

 

 

 

 

(inb4 in the away section when Dortmund plays)


Edited by Panflute, 20 July 2014 - 11:29 AM.

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#5884 Kloppische

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 11:45 AM

Pierdol się.  :ninja:

 

Just bought the ticket for Śląsk Wrocław - Dortmund friendly which will be played on the 6th of August.


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#5885 liverbird v04

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 12:10 PM

One ticket? Nobody coming with you?

Not that there's anything wrong with it - I've gone to a game and a concert alone.


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#5886 Kloppische

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 01:05 PM

I bought one ticket but it doesn't mean Im going alone. :D Around 30 Dortmund fans from our polish forum are coming to this game and we'll meet in the morning and integrate. :)


Edited by Kloppische, 20 July 2014 - 01:06 PM.

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#5887 Danny-Boy

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 01:09 PM

I went to a movie alone once. Never again.


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#5888 nudge

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 01:28 PM

Good idea with answering like that, looks much better:

 

I know, it was a genius idea :D

 
Socialism is, as the name suggests, full of social programs  like retirement system, public education, public healthcare, public banks etc, etc. No market can be free with all those things, how can it be? First of all, those public institutions are not free as you are well aware of, the state has to tax our work, tax the products, tax the exchange of products. That already contradicts your opinion that free market can work within socialism - free market is not free if the exchange of goods, work and products are taxed, it is a regulation in itself.
 
Public institutions also contradict free market - if the state donates public institutions it already messes with the market because it hurts the private sector, wouldn't you agree? Everywhere where there is a public sector, the private sector gets hurt. Costumers are obliged to pay taxes for healthcare, for insurance etc. This is the whole idea of socialism - and it entirely contradicts the idea of free market, free competition, free choice of costumers.
 
Not true, mate. As we can probably agree, you will hardly ever find a society with a pure form of any economic system. Unregulated capitalism and fully blown socialism are two extremes that exist on paper only. Most real economic systems combine elements of both, and I personally think that finding the golden middle way is the most important.
 
There is such thing as market socialism, It's not my idea, and it has historical examples, the best known ones being Yugoslavia in the 60s, Hungary in the late 60s, or certain regions in Spain and Italy were it is practiced up until this day. The main idea of it is workers' self-management - cooperative enterprises are co-owned by its employees but they operate in a decentralized fashion under the forces of a free and open market and are not being planned or regulated by the state. 
 

I must disagree - free market, as again the name suggest, is freedom within the market, that means freedom of product exchange, freedom of business etc. But we don't live in caves anymore, laws have to be obeyed. If someone tries to get rich by breaking the law he needs to get punished accordingly, I think we have two definitions of "playing fairly". I mean obeying the law, and you mean bascially being a douchebag and playing within the rules but in the way that hurts the competition. But do you think its really possible on a large scale? As I said, free market creates something if there is a demand for it - you gave an example of a huge firm that would buy-out all supplies to stop the small firms from getting big. But what that actions would cause? If the magazines exporting the supplies were getting emptied out by this big whale then instantly a group of smart people would create more magazines because the demand for the supplies would be huge and it would be very good to invest in that.

 

 

Free market simply means economy regulated by supply and demand, with transaction based on mutual agreement on prices with no government intervention, that's it. You can well play within existing rules, use loopholes and still be a douche (see RB Leipzig :ninja:).

Yes, I think it's possible on a large scale. If I understand correctly, you think that everyone has an equal chance in a free market capitalism. I think that's an essentially wrong assumption, simply as everyone's assets are not equal and those with more capital have an advantage, even without state regulations. It isn't necessarily bad thing per se, but without equal playing field (which is impossible), some businesses are always going to outcompete others and grow even larger until they have the majority of control in a certain industry and eliminate opposition. Why would a big business that's operating on the ethos of maximizing profits want competition?

 

And even if you disagree then tell me how would this huge firm be able to buy out everything everywhere? This is simply impossible, huge firms equal having sectors all over the country or even the world, it makes it absolutely impossible to effectively play dirty, at least in the example you've given. I would like some more examples please.  :P 

 

It doesn't have to be one firm, and it doesn't have to be owning everything everywhere, that's unrealistic. Enterprises and businesses tend to pool their resources, mergers and acquisitions happen, manufacturing conglomerates rise - all in order to lower the risk and allow enterprise to grow rapidly and earn more economic power by any means necessary. What started out as a competitive free market in late 18th century, turned into a bunch of big businesses controlling various industries and damaging economic environment of its competitors. John D Rockeffeler's Standard Oil Company in late 19th century is a good example, the same happened in railroad and other transportation, steel, banking and finance industries. Big fish is always going to eat the small fish, free market capitalism is not an exclusion. 

 

Capitalism is strictly connected to the idea of a free trade and competition, therefore of course we're not living in a capitalist system. How can you say that? Europe is a one giant zone of socialism - we have retirement system, public education, public healthcare, public banks, public television, I could name many more. This is all a contradiction to capitalism in which "everything or almost everything is private".  But keep in mind, in capitalism there might be public sectors, of course! But they cannot be obligatory to the costumers! State can be a participant of the market but never someone above the rest setting the rules. But that's what happens now.

 

You're pretty much talking about the Anglo-Saxon model of capitalism were taxation is low, regulation is low, and public sector is almost non-existing. The majority of Europe has chosen the German/Nordic model of capitalism though, which is a mixes economy - taxation is higher, and public sector and welfare spending is higher. It's still capitalism though, as majority of enterprises are privately owned, and government intervention in price formation is very low. It's mostly competitive capitalism with a large public sector.

 

I can at most agree on saying that we live in a pseudo-capitalism. In theory you can create a private firm and compete with other firm, in theory you can compete - but where's the freedom of action? The system is way too over-regulated so creating a firm (in Poland) lasts few weeks instead of few minutes. Just for having a firm(!) you have an obligation to pay 1000zloty of insurence every month. How can that have anything to do with an idea of capitalism when we are obliged to basically pay a fine because we were so brazen to create a firm and try to make money. Also, when you hire someone and he earns 1400zloty net you need to write on his work-deal 2000 gross because the 600 are taxes. But here's the kicker - you also have to pay a double insurence for him and the real cost of hiring that employee is 2400 zloty so you pay another 400. So basically you are paying an extra 1000 just to hire someone for 1400. Once again an employer is punished for being so brazen to give someone a job! You can't call capitalism a system in which people are discouraged from creating firms, hiring employees and where almost everything is heavily taxed. Taxes in Poland:

 

Work is taxed on on about 30%. Then we take the money state left us and we go to the store to buy something. 23% VAT is included in almost every product. State already takes 53% of our money away from us. Then we go to the petrol station and it turns out the tax is about 1/2 of the total price of the petrol, so thats another couple %. Polish economists counted that state takes averagely 70%~ of our money.

 

So to sum up - no, this is not capitalism, never, this is at most a very, very poor imitation, full of absurds, full of taxes and it hurts everyone... except the richest of course.

 

I'm sorry to hear that. As I said, I'm definitely not an expert on Poland's economy. How many percent of Polish enterprises are privately owned and how many are public?

In Lithuania, you need to have a €3000 registered capital in a bank to set up a company. As for taxes, it's 15% income tax, 9% employee's social security tax, 21% VAT. For businesses, it's 15% corporate profit tax, up to 15% dividend tax, and they pay up to 31% social security tax for their employees. Not too shabby, and I would be alright with that if we had a capable government to actually use that money for public good. The public healthcare and education systems are quite modern and work quite well though.

 

In what way will it corrupt itself? Who will corrupt who? In what way monopolies will be created in a free market? I explained in details how monopolies are created right now and what is the source of corruption - I believe free market would erase those problems. Yet even though these problems are already a part of our life, you keep saying free market will lead to them happening. Waiting for more examples, power over supply chain in my opinion was a poor example, I wrote why I think so above.

 

I'm kind of repeating myself again - the growth of certain businesses and them pooling their resources will lead to market concentration in their hands. You're talking about how government regulations allow monopoly creation, and you're right about that, but monopolies form as easily (and even more naturally) under conditions of free market. I already provided examples from 18th -19th - early 20th century oil, transportation, steel industries above, and these were the events that led to consequent introduction of government regulations in order to bring back competition (anti-trust laws, etc). For more recent examples and  further explanation of supply chain manipulation, read up how companies like Wallmart operate. For explanation of buying out competitors, look Clear Channel up. Some sectors will always be natural monopolies, such as utilities and infrastructure.

 

The potential of internet is huge, but I admit its just a hypothesis, never trully proved. I don't know how internet influences the market in China for example, someone must check it out, results could be interesting. However I didn't say about finding anything. The information will come to the costumers naturally. If a firm gets bad reputation then an average costumer will hear about it sooner or later, the flow of information in today's world is gigantic, especially when the information is about a scandal of some sort. Some people will read on the internet and share the information with their friends when they meet, some will hear about it in televsion, some will read it in a paper etc.

 

And I don't see a psychological problem here because information you receive is very simple, just test it on yourself - if you hear that supermarket X sells meat that is overdue, will you risk buying meat there or go somewhere else?

When the quality of products becomes poor and the firm doesn't have a monopoly on the product (I believe monopolies won't be created, you think differently) how can this firm survive in a world full of people who are fiercly fighting for costumers? Low quality products can happen only when a firm has a monopoly on this product and I don't believe a monopolism can happen.

 

So once again, you think that free market would thrive and successfully regulate itself, not allowing any entity or entities to become too big and consolidate significant control of a certain industry. Meanwhile, I think it's inevitable, and will always happen as companies grow larger. That's the major underlying cause of the difference of our opinions.

For psychological factors, I can link you to various interesting studies that explore the role information plays in consumer behaviour, I've studied organizational/social psychology so still have a lot of those laying around :D

To counter your example though - if I hear that supermarket X sells meat is overdue, I won't know if it's true or if it's a smear campaign by supermarket Y. If I hear that my favourite coffee is being produced by children under poor conditions in some countries thousands of kilometers away from me, I'll probably ignore it (just an example - I try to be a conscientious consumer, haha).

 

So you're saying there wouldn't be a problem if the free market wouldn't degenerate into monopolism... Then we have no problem! :D You're saying free market leads to monopolism, I think differently which I underlined couple of times. Monopolism is not caused by a free market but by a market regulated by the state. Monopolism happens when you get rid of competition and getting rid of competition happens when the market is regulated by thousands of public servants (I also mean politicians) who are easily corruptible and will do what the big capitalist wants for a right amount of money. Yes, it's that simple. Politicians have an unlimited power of getting rich by controlling the market and it leads to corruption and monopolism on a massive scale. If a costumer controls the market:

- Corruption cannot happen. Only corruption that happens in the free market is a corruption within the firm itself. The bigger the firm gets the harder it is for the owner to hire the right people who won't be tempted to earn some money on the side. But this is only another argument against creation of monopolism - when corruption within the firm growes, then the big firm has harder and harder time competing with other, more effectively run smaller firms.

- monopolism on a longer period of time (you can have a monopol on product but as I said many times - market creates something when there's demand for it. If there would be a demand for cheaper product then people would quickly start acting) simply cannot happen. No matter how powerful the firm is and how much money it has, it won't be able to stop the enormous flow of little investors who will offer the costumers better and cheaper services. The only way to crash the little investors is to set up a regulation that will destroy the microenterprises before they even hatch. That's why I still don't see how in your opinion monopolism can happen on a free market.

So what we need to do is to take away the tools from those greedy bastards and that's what free market does. The government controlling the market simply cannot work because as we agree people are flawed creatures and if we give such great power to some group of people it can only end with a disaster. The only possible solution is to take away that power.

 

Same thing again, and the core of our disagreement. 

Essentially the same will happen if we give power to some group of big businesses, and it's happening our days. It's a lose-lose situation either way, I'm afraid.

 

Here you convinced me, I jumped over the line with this one. That's what happens when something comes to my head by itself, I didn't learn it anywhere, just made it up on the spot thinking this was a good argument.  :lol:

 

Fair enough :thumbup:

 

You're very wrong unfortunately. After we destroyed communism (not entirely but that's a different story) a man called Mieczysław Wilczek presented "The Act of Wilczek". It was the simplest economic act in the entire Europe at that time, it consisted of only 4 pages of rules of the market! After it came to life in 1989 Poland had the best economic growth in the entire Europe. Yet some "brilliant" minds decided regulations are necessary and the original act was modified after only 1,5 year. Then it was modified again and again and again and by 2000 it was something completely different, full of regulations, over few hundred pages. Since then we've been heading right back into socialism. You couldn't be more wrong in suggesting Poland is not socialist. Even our own Prime Minister, who came to power claiming he was a liberal, that he will reduce taxes, that he will free the market, after 3 years of rulling he stated that he's a Social Democrat! That's what power does to people, a thief and a cheat is rulling our country and didn't fullfil a single promise in 7 fucking years...

 

I already told you about how much taxes we pay in Poland. We have an income tax that is the main doctrine of socialism - "Take the money from the rich and give to the poor! Social justice!" I found a quite interesting anegdote about this - if a poor man takes a weapon and goes to a rich man's house and says "Hey, Im poor, give me some of your money!" he would of course go to jail for that act. But when a state does the exact same thing its somehow very much okay.

We also have plenty of public institutions for some of which people are obliged to give their money. How can you call it anything else than socialism? Just because we have more freedom on the market then 30 years ago doesn't mean we have capitalism. Just because a slave gets free Sundays doesn't mean he's not a slave.

 

Discussed above. And once again, we'll have to agree to disagree.

 

We must agree to disagree then.

 

Agreed! :D

 

I enjoy our ramblings as long as they are on a decent level. Generally it ends with people calling each other names etc.  :lol: 

 

 

However it is taking too damn long to answer, I spent about 2 hours writing this. :D

 

Having a proper discussion is always ace. I respect your opinion, I like to exchange ideas, and while I still stick to mine, it's always something to be learned or at least something worth reconsidering. Mental stimulation ftw!

And yeah, tell me about it - I started my previous post an hour before I left for work, and when spent at least an hour completing it after I got back home :lol: Similar with this one haha. I can finally enjoy my Sunday off now :D


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#5889 liverbird v04

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 01:33 PM

I bought one ticket but it doesn't mean Im going alone. :D Around 30 Dortmund fans from our polish forum are coming to this game and we'll meet in the morning and integrate. :)

I see. I would have been surprised if you were the only Dortmund fan around that you know :D I guess it's old-school style and you don't have specific seats assigned per ticket.


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#5890 Tsubasa

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 02:00 PM

I went to a movie alone once. Never again.

 

Really? I often do that. I really enjoy it. 


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#5891 liverbird v04

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 02:09 PM

I really enjoy my own company and if I liked going to the cinema I would be going alone too.


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#5892 Panflute

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 02:13 PM

If I watch films alone, it's at home. I'm not much of a movie-goer anyway.


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#5893 Conor

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 02:16 PM

I watch movies at home alone, but in public it's a weird feeling being on your own in the movie theatre it's really awkward. 

 

Plus I don't go much because it's SO overpriced in the UK. 


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#5894 Kloppische

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 02:29 PM

So we might agree we are never going to agree on the monopolism aspect of the free market.  :D So let's not discuss if further.  :P

 

You asked me how many percent of polish enterprises are privately owned. The best information I could find was that public enterprises make around 20% of GDP (Gross domestic product). But even if it turned out that 100% of enterprises would be private it still wouldn't mean that we have capitalism. I disagree with calling it capitalism for one simple reason - the times are poor and calling this mixed system a capitalist system is giving people a negative feelings towards capitalism. If its a mixed system we can as well call it a socialist system with parts of capitalist system. But simple fact remains that the more private and less-regulated the country is the richer and more dynamic it becomes. Yet somehow Europe goes the other direction, they're making more and more regulations, when they don't work the solution of the state is of course "More regulations!" and we jump into a never-ending cycle.

 

Not saying the free market is a perfect solution, nothing is perfect. But its a good way to go because:

1. The present sucks. It can only get worse than that if we stay on a path to socialism. Every country that ever went to the direction of free market became richer and richer.

2. Bankrupt retirement system, at least in Poland. Im 100% sure I won't get my retirement so the only solution is to get out of this system before a real catastrophy happens.

 

You prefer to find an answer somewhere in between. Unfortunately that cannot happen because when people have power, they want more power. So if we don't take the power to control the market away from them, it will always lead to the state creating more and more regulations and getting more powerful. I could agree mixed system would be a good solution but only when assuming that every politican and public servant is honest and just. But we live in a different world. I actually don't even believe in the effectiveness of democracy but that's also a story for a different day.

 

Anyway, it was a nice discussion, have a nice Sunday.  :thumbup:


Edited by Kloppische, 20 July 2014 - 02:33 PM.

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#5895 Tsubasa

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 02:38 PM

I watch movies at home alone, but in public it's a weird feeling being on your own in the movie theatre it's really awkward. 

 

 

Why is it awkward? You shouldn't talk to someone during the movie anyway :P I see plenty of people in the cinema alone, when I go watch an OV-Movie. 


Edited by WELTMEISTER, 20 July 2014 - 02:38 PM.

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#5896 nudge

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 02:47 PM

Good idea, as it will save us from going round in circles and will spare others from it :D

 

Anyway, I've had a meeting with my doctor today. So apparently I have patellofemoral syndrome, inflammation of Achilles tendon, and a stress fracture of fourth metatarsal :lol:


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#5897 Tsubasa

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 02:49 PM

Anyway, I've had a meeting with my doctor today. So apparently I have patellofemoral syndrome, inflammation of Achilles tendon, and a stress fracture of fourth metatarsal :lol:

 

Ouch. Hope you get better soon. In much pain? Got time off work for it? :P


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#5898 nudge

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 02:54 PM

Ouch. Hope you get better soon. In much pain? Got time off work for it? :P

 

Thanks :) Not too much pain, just the knee, which was primarily the main reason I went for a checkup, as it became a sort of chronic pain. Achilles is ok, don't really feel it at all, and that stress fracture must be so tiny I'm only a bit uncomfortable when putting full weight on my right foot, nothing too bad though.  Nah, no time off work, isn't worth it :P


Edited by nudge, 20 July 2014 - 02:55 PM.

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#5899 Relling

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 04:07 PM

I just went to a movie alone, and I actually was the only one in the theatre. That has happened to me quite a few times, and I must say I prefer it :)


Edited by Relling, 20 July 2014 - 04:08 PM.

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#5900 Tsubasa

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 04:18 PM

Yup, happened to me too once. I felt like one of those fancy rich people with their own private screening room :D


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#5901 oliveandblue

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 04:31 PM

I don't like going alone.  Those previews last 20,000 years to go through.  I also like talking and laughing with someone else.  I'm a needy person.  


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#5902 MaximusMeyer

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 09:48 AM

Anyway, I've had a meeting with my doctor today. So apparently I have patellofemoral syndrome, inflammation of Achilles tendon, and a stress fracture of fourth metatarsal :lol:

 

Hopefully it's not half as bad as that is to read


Edited by MaximusMeyer, 21 July 2014 - 09:48 AM.

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#5903 ASF

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 01:10 PM

I just went to a movie alone, and I actually was the only one in the theatre. That has happened to me quite a few times, and I must say I prefer it :)

 

Ditto. 

 

Who wants to go to the cinema and end up hearing more of parallel convos than the actual film? Certainly not me.

 

This is why I haven't gone to the cinema since 2006.


Edited by ASF, 21 July 2014 - 01:11 PM.

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#5904 Tsubasa

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 08:36 PM

LsiAqOK.jpg

 

700kb left for 2018!


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#5905 Panflute

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 11:16 PM

Today I went to visit my father. We watched 2 manly films, namely Conan the Barbarian (1982) and For a Few Dollars More. We also drank whiskey and smoked cigars. What a great evening.


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#5906 nudge

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 11:34 PM

Today I went to visit my father. We watched 2 manly films, namely Conan the Barbarian (1982) and For a Few Dollars More. We also drank whiskey and smoked cigars. What a great evening.

 

The important question is, what kind of whisky?


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#5907 Panflute

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 11:39 PM

The important question is, what kind of whisky?

 

I'm going to admit I have no clue. My father poured 2 glasses as I was going to the bathroom and I didn't bother to ask what kind it was. It was Irish is all I know, since it had ice in it. He said it was a kind of whiskey fit for summer, as he tends to save the scotch for colder days.


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#5908 Panflute

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 10:03 PM

And now I have a fever, as I'm contemplating the sad fact that there are so many half-assed, half-talented people making money off their writing because they know the right people. It's been a great day.


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#5909 Danny-Boy

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 10:19 PM

And now I have a fever, as I'm contemplating the sad fact that there are so many half-assed, half-talented people making money off their writing because they know the right people. It's been a great day.

 

Boogie fever?


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#5910 Panflute

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 10:40 PM

Boogie fever?

 

No, regular fever that sadly cannot be cured by more cowbell.


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#5911 Danny-Boy

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 10:46 PM

Those fevers suck.


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#5912 Tsubasa

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 10:59 PM

But only sissies complain about it! 


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#5913 Panflute

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 11:00 PM

I have a holiday so it is my duty to sit at home and complain about everything.


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#5914 MaximusMeyer

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Posted Yesterday, 08:12 AM

Maybe this will cheer you up, new Nokturnal Mortum track... 

 

starts just before the six minute mark... they are playing at a pro-Ukrainian Army gig, which is why the lack of corpse paint and whatever nonsense; defeating Russia with solar black metal one ritual at a time

 


Edited by MaximusMeyer, Yesterday, 08:14 AM.

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#5915 Tsubasa

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Posted Yesterday, 11:14 AM

Hey guys, I'm back. Who was that strange WELTMEISTER guy? Total knobhead. 


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#5916 Danny-Boy

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Posted Yesterday, 11:17 AM

Some strange guy who actually kinda likes Dortmunds disgusting new kit.


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#5917 liverbird v04

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Posted Yesterday, 11:19 AM

Hey guys, I'm back. Who was that strange WELTMEISTER guy? Total knobhead. 

We've found you a replacement. Deal with it!


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#5918 Panflute

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Posted Yesterday, 11:50 AM

Maybe this will cheer you up, new Nokturnal Mortum track... 

 

starts just before the six minute mark... they are playing at a pro-Ukrainian Army gig, which is why the lack of corpse paint and whatever nonsense; defeating Russia with solar black metal one ritual at a time

 

 

Yeah, I saw that yesterday. Quite a good song from what I can hear. I also like their version of "Slava geroyam" with what appears to be the singer of Sokyra Peruna.

 

Too bad that band's falling apart. Saturious (keyboard & folk instrument player; co-composer) left the band as did pretty much everyone from Voice of Steel except the frontman and the drummer.

 

In other news, this did cheer me up:

 

zstS3cC.png


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#5919 Faithcore

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Posted Yesterday, 03:14 PM

Hey guys, I'm back. Who was that strange WELTMEISTER guy? Total knobhead. 

 

Where have you been?


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