And what are you counting as trophies? I've seen some pretty laughable "honours" on wikipedia including some vote as world team of the year in a soccer magazine! I'd definitely discount Charity Shields and Intertoto Cups, not sure if the UEFA Super Cup, Intercontinental Cup or Club World Championship is really worthy of being included alongside competitions that took a lot more games to win. I doubt they'd seriously influence the order, some of the more mickey mouse trophies appear to be heavy influences
As long as it is a recognized tournament, whats the big deal? Its STILL an official trophy to win, so it should count as a trophy tally. In any case, even if you werent to consider Charity Shields or Super Cups, it wont change the balance much since the big seven remain the same way they are overall, with a few switches between Tottenham and Aston Villa, etc. But really, how could you NOT consider the World Club Cup? I know and I agree that the formatting is pathetic, however, you still get to be called "World Champions". Its like a confederations cup yet I don't see people discounting Brazil or other nations from winning them.
Including only Top flight league titles, FA Cups, League Cups and the European Cup, Cup Winners Cup and UEFA Cup ie major trophies that require more than one or two games to win :-MAJOR DOMESTIC/EUROPEAN TROPHIES01. Liverpool 40 (L18, FAC 7, LC 7, EUR 5+3)02. Man Utd 34 (L17, FAC 11, LC 2, EUR 3+1)03. Arsenal 26 (L13, FAC 10, LC 2, EUR 0+1)04. Aston Villa 20 (L7, FAC 7, LC 5, EUR 1+0)05. Tottenham 17 (L2, FAC 8, LC 4, EUR 0+3)06. Everton 15 (L9, FAC 5, LC 0, EUR 0+1)07. Chelsea 13 (L3, FAC 4, LC 4, EUR 0+2)
Pratically the same big seven as I had in my own list, with a few switches between Everton, Villa and Spurs. But Chelsea, Arsenal, Liverpool and Manchester United remain in their same positions.
08. Newcastle 10 (L4, FAC 6, LC 0)09. Blackburn 10 (L3, FAC 6, LC 1)10. Wolves 9 (L3, FAC 4, LC 2)11. Man City 9 (L2, FAC 4, LC 2, EUR 0+1)12. Notts Forest 9 (L1, FAC 2, LC 4, EUR 2+0)13. Sunderland 8 (L6, FAC 2, LC 0)14. Sheff Wed 8 (L4, FAC 3, LC 1)15. West Brom 7 (L1, FAC 5, LC 1)KEY : L=League, FAC=FA Cup, LC=League Cup, EUR= European Cups + UEFA Cups/Cup Winners Cups
Im sorry but Id rather have Leeds in that list than to add West Bromwich in, considering Leeds won something European if Im not mistaken.
I'd probably weight more towards league titles and European Cups, that would shift forest up and Sunderland too. Counting only league titles and European Cups combined :-01. Liverpool 23 (18/5)02. Man Utd 20 (17/3)03. Arsenal 13 (13/0)04. Everton 9 (9/0)05. Aston Villa 8 (7/1)06. Sunderland 6 (6/0)07. Newcastle 4 (4/0)08. Sheff Wed 4 (4/0)09. Notts Forest 3 (1/2)10. Chelsea 3 (3/0)11. Blackburn 3 (3/0)12. Wolves 3 (3/0)13. Leeds Utd 3 (3/0)14. Huddersfield 3 (3/0)
That doesnt look right. By European Cups I suppose you mean Champions League. But really, having Huddersfield instead of Tottenham looks plain old ugly. In my opinion, that list I first put down was ultimately the best list to determine the powerhouses of football in England. Because West Bromwich and Huddersfield certainly arent.Your first list was also good, bar the fact you somehow skipped Leeds UTD from the list and - instead - placed West Brom in it. As for your last list, I hope it was a joke including Huddersfield and giving no regard to Tottenham, a team which won 3 European titles (albeit not Champions League).So in conclusion, I think the big seven should be:Arsenal, Liverpool, Manchester United, Aston Villa, Tottenham, Everton and Chelsea(in which ever order you deem fairer than the other, but overall those are the elite lucky sevens)and if we were to include others in, itll certainly be Manchester City, Newcastle UTD, Sunderland, Nottingham Forest, Leeds UTD, Blackburn, Sheffield Wednesday and Wolves.===============================================================================Anyway lets not overcomplicate things. This thread wasnt about who is the most successful club in winning combined trophies or leagues + [insert whatever makes your team look better]. This was about OVERALL trophies won, which is the best way to know who is overall good. The topic title didnt say "15 most successful [league cup + fa cup] teams". It says 15 most successful teams overall.And having someone remove Tottenham or Leeds, and then to add Huddersfield and West Brom instead is a joke. In the end of the day, its all about how many trophies your club has won, not what "type" of trophies they were.In a full premier league season, you judge a team by its overall points, not by who they beat and who they lost to. We could always say,"Yeah sure Manchester United have more points than any other team in the premier league. BUT, they lost 2 times to Liverpool therefore I think Liverpool should be league champions this year". But that wouldnt be fair, because we don't judge teams by the quality or types of one or two factors. We count their overall season's performance, and in the end the team with MOST overall points win, even if they didnt score as many goals as the team in 2nd, even though they lost 2 times to Liverpool, etc.Same thing applies to trophies won. Overall those are the 15 most successful teams.If this thread was about the most successful League champions then Id put Huddersfield in front of Tottenham. But clearly it was about who is OVERALL good.
Edited by Mo., 17 March 2009 - 11:54 AM.